COOPER: Abortion, equal rights for gays and lesbians. Stem cell research, for many, incendiary issues dividing this nation, no matter what side you’re on. Now, some evangelical Christians believe they are losing the moral and political battle over some of these hot- button issues. They are now a moral minority.
Listen to what conservative leader James Dobson said in his farewell speech to the group he founded, Focus on the Family.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. JAMES DOBSON, FOCUS ON THE FAMILY: The battles that we fought in the ’80s now, we were victorious in many of those conflicts with the culture, trying to defend righteousness, trying to defend the unborn child, trying to preserve the dignity of the family and the definition of marriage. We fought all those battles. And really, it was a holding action. And the battle is still to be waged.
And we are right now in the most discouraging period of that long conflict. Humanly speaking, we can say that we have lost all those battles.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So have conservative Christians lost the culture war? Tony Perkins joins us. He’s the president of Family Research Council, also author of the book, “Personal Faith, Public Policy.” Also with us, Mel White, a minister who’s gay and the founder of SoulForce.org.
Tony, when you hear James Dobson basically hearing that they’ve lost the culture war, do you think that’s true?
TONY PERKINS, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: No, and I think there’s more to what he actually said. In fact, there’s more to that sentence than he said. He said that God is in control, and we are not about to give up, to which there was great applause at Focus on the Family when he made that comment.
I talked to Dr. Dobson about the comments and how they were reported in the “Telegraph,” kind of taken out of context. I think he was putting it into the context of where we are today.
Clearly, you win elections. You win policy battles. And you lose them. This is a long, long battle. And I think as Christians, we realize this is not a destination. We’re on a journey. And that’s to be salt and to be light and impact the culture around us. Unfortunately, it’s not like the GPS on your car, when you get someplace, it says, you have arrived. I don’t think we’re going to hear that in this life. COOPER: Mel, if this is a journey, where do you see the journey the country is on?
REV. MEL WHITE, FOUNDER, SOULFORCE.ORG: I think fundamentalism has lost the culture wars, and a lot of Christians are simply bailing out of fundamentalist churches because they realize that they were wrong about gay people. They were wrong about the rights of women, and they were wrong about stem cell research.
So I think they’ve lost, but at the same time, they’re getting wise. They’re seeing that Jesus didn’t talk about those issues. The fundamentalists focused on those issues, and now they’re coming around and saying, “Hey, let’s focus on what Jesus really believed, and that’s caring for the poor, caring for the hungry, and looking for the widows and orphans.”
COOPER: Tony, we talked about this before on this program with you. There does seem to be a broadening of the issues that many self- identified conservative Christians seem to want to deal with. I mean, we’re hearing more about poverty, about Africa, about other issues. Do you think — I mean, is that true?
PERKINS: Well, I think it is part of the generational understanding of what Christianity is. I just came back from Honduras myself last week, where we’re building an orphanage for children whose parents have died from AIDS.
But there’s a connection here between our public policy and our work to help the poor, to help those who are in need. You have to look at the church in its total, as Jesus did. Jesus, you know, was very focused on meeting the spiritual and physical needs of people, as well as holding up the standard of what was right and wrong.
And I think in the Christian world, we hear more about Christians who — in fact, on this show right now, we’re talking about public policy issues. We’re not talking about my trip to Honduras or other Christians doing work to help the poor or the needy. It’s all a part of being a Christian. We just see — I think the public sees more of these policy debates, because they’re more contentious.
COOPER: Mel, it’s interesting to hear Pastor Rick Warren. Recently, he was on “LARRY KING.” During the whole Proposition 8 debate, he released in the final days, released a video to his supporters stressing his position in support of Proposition 8. I want to play you what he said on “LARRY KING” last week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PASTOR RICK WARREN, SADDLEBACK CHURCH: I am not an anti-gay or anti-gay-marriage activist. Never have been, never will be. During the whole Proposition 8 thing, I never once went to a meeting, never once issued a statement, never once even gave an endorsement in the two years Prop 8 was going.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Obviously Prop 8, the idea of reversing the court’s ruling in California, which would have allowed same-sex marriage. Mel, is Rick Warren telling the truth there?
M. WHITE: Rick Warren has a very short memory. Just turn on YouTube and see Rick Warren talking for Proposition 8.
He’s a mega church pastor who is not a fundamentalist leader but doesn’t want to alienate all those fundamentalists who are reading his book and coming to his church. He isn’t telling the truth. He has been an anti-gay activist for a long time. Only he says it nicely, unlike Falwell and Dobson and Roberts and these guys who really said it strongly.
He’s trying to edge into it by not saying that really he has gays in his church. He knows that God created them and loves them as they are. He’s just afraid to take the step in the truth.
COOPER: Tony, what do you make of what Rick Warren said? I mean, does it concern you?
PERKINS: Well, I have not talked — I have not spoken to Rick Warren. So I — I would just say this. I’m concerned by what he said. But I have not talked to him personally, so I won’t say any more than that.
COOPER: Can I — can I ask you what concerns you?
PERKINS: Well, I think — I think he’s — he’s changing his tone. I think that it’s not what he said. I think Mel pointed out that he did state some things before. He put out some statements. And in support of Proposition 8.
And I think, you know, however Mel wants to interpret it or others, if he’s preaching the Bible and what the Bible has to say about marriage and about men and women and their relationships, then it’s going to offend some people.
Look, Christianity is — hasn’t survived over the last 2,000 years. I mean, it’s really thrived. I mean, it started with a fearful group of abandoned men who followed Christ and literally became a force of believers who have literally shaped the world. I don’t think a couple of elections or a few court decisions or anything else is going to reverse that momentum.
COOPER: I’ve got to give Mel the last word, because I gave Tony the first word — Mel.
M. WHITE: It’s really important for people to realize that Tony and Dobson and these others have been misleading the public for so many years about sexual orientation and gender identity.
It’s so important to see through their half-truths and their hyperboles. It’s really important to realize the damage they’re doing by not saying that God created us gay. God loves us gay. And we should have all the rights that the American people provide all of us. So Tony sounds good like Rick, but they’re really saying things that are horrible and destructive.
COOPER: Tony, I’ll give you a quick response, because it was directed at you.
PERKINS: Well, I would just say it’s not true. The Bible speaks for itself.
M. WHITE: The Bible says nothing about homosexuality, Tony.
PERKINS: You know that very well that it does. But Mel, nonetheless, Mel, I love you. Appreciate you as a human being.
M. WHITE: Don’t say that because as soon as you say about gay people lead to destruction, the break-up of families…
PERKINS: No, that’s not true, Mel.
M. WHITE: You continue this, “We love you, but we hate you. We love you, but…”
PERKINS: No, I didn’t say that.
M. WHITE: “… We don’t want you to have rights.”
PERKINS: I didn’t say that.
M. WHITE: Tony, I’ve read your material. I’ve monitored you for ten years. You’ve got to get off this anti-gay stuff, because they’re leaving the churches, because they’ve seen through your fundamentalist stuff.
COOPER: We’ve got to leave it there.
PERKINS: Actually, you’re wrong on that point. The surveys, the polling data shows that Christian churches that are preaching the truth are the ones that are gaining members. It’s the mainline liberal denominations that are losing membership.
M. WHITE: That’s not true at all either.
COOPER: I’ve got to leave it there. We’re not going to resolve it tonight. I appreciate both of you having the conversation. Thank you. Tony Perkins and Mel White.
PERKINS: Thank you, Anderson.
